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&copy; 1996
<A HREF="mailto:bernard.suzanne@polytechnique.org">Bernard SUZANNE </A>
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<H2>E-mail Archives :<BR>
Mathematical entities in Plato's <I>Republic</I></H2>
<P><FONT SIZE=+1>August 13-15, 1996</FONT></P>
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<P><FONT SIZE="-1">This page is part of the "e-mail archives" section of a site, <A HREF="../plato.htm">Plato and his dialogues</A>, dedicated to developing a new interpretation of Plato's dialogues.
The "e-mail archives" section includes HTML edited versions of posts that I submitted on various e-mail discussion lists about Plato and ancient philosophy.
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<P><I>From: Yves Bastarache &lt;Yves_Bastarache@itr.qc.ca&gt;<BR>
To: plato &lt;PLATO@freelance.com&gt;<BR>
Date: August 13, 1996 22:38:32<BR>
Subject: mathematical entities in the simile of the line</I></P>
<P><I>First of all I beg your comprehension for my poor english. I am a
francophone. I read well your language but I have some difficulties to
write it.</I></P>
<P><I>I would be very grateful if someone could explain me the status of
mathematical entities in the simile of the line. They puzzle me when I
try to explain them to my students. The passage from images to sensibles
objects seem to me quite clear. I can also make sense of the line when
I link sensibles objects to Forms. How should I understand the place and
role of math. entities? If possible, join exemples to your explication.</I></P>
<P><I>Thanks in advance!</I></P>
<P><I>Yves Bastarache<BR>
Trois-Rivi&egrave;res, Qu&eacute;bec.</I></P>
<P>
<HR WIDTH="100%">To: plato &lt;plato@freelance.com&gt;<BR>
Date : August 14, 1996, 09:21:18<BR>
Subject: Re: mathematical entities in the simile of the line</P>
<P>Yves,</P>
<P>To answer your request, I think there are two things you must notice:</P>
<P>1) Whereas Plato describes the two segments of the visible in termes
of <B>beings</B> (images and &quot;originals&quot;), he only describes
the two segments of the intelligible in terms of <B>processes</B> (from
axioms taken for granted <B>down</B> to consequences and from hypotheses
to broader hypotheses all the way <B>up</B> to the first principle);</P>
<P>2) He only uses mathematics <B>as an example</B>!</P>
<P>Plato doesn't care about mathematics and mathematical entities <I>per
se</I>. He only uses them as the most readily available example of abstract
constructs, as a &quot;gymnastic of the mind&quot;. For instance, in the
<I>Meno</I>, they provide, for a guy who only cares about hard facts, an
experimental proof of 1) the difference between opinion and knowledge and
2) the fact that you can look for something you don't know yet, and find
it even if you don't have the words to say it yet (the slave doesn't know
the word &quot;diagonal&quot; until after he has found the answer, and
it is the last word of Socrates to him once he <B>knows</B> what it is).</P>
<P>In the simile of the line, they provide for an <B>example</B> of a way
of reasoning. But Plato's ultimate purpose is not to locate &quot;mathematical
entities&quot; on one segment, and least of all to make them one of the
segments. Cursed be Aristotle who messed all this up!...</P>
<P>So, if mathematics don't play their role of example and cloud the issue
rather than clarify it, forget about them and look for other examples.</P>
<P>Let me try with another example, much more in line (if you allow me
the pun!) with what is Plato's ultimate goal, to know what it is to be
a man (&quot;know thyself...&quot;).</P>
<P>1) First there is my image in a mirror, a picture of me taken by somebody
else, or, if I were rich enough and famous, a painting by some future Rembrant
or Van Gogh: no problem there, we are in the first segment, looking at
&quot;images&quot; of one man.</P>
<P>2) Next, there is you and me and all the list members, and my wife and
kids, and my neighbours walking in the street, and... : no problem either
there, these are &quot;real&quot; men and women in time and space.</P>
<P>And now, <I>en route</I> for the harder part!</P>
<P>3) Then, there is the &quot;concept&quot; of man, the thing I refer
to when using the word &quot;man&quot;. It is to all men what &quot;square&quot;
is to all squares I may reason upon. It is born from the &quot;images&quot;
I get through my senses of actual men and put as an unproven &quot;hypothesis&quot;
that I can analyse but that is &quot;evident&quot; for everybody (even
for Aristotle!). It is an animal with two arms, two legs, a head and so
on. It is endowed with the ability to speak and think, and has <I>logos</I>,
whatever that be. But it doesn't give me yet the <B>principle</B> of &quot;man&quot;!
It doesn't tell me what it is to be a man. The point is, I am perfectly
able to recognize a man when I see one, as I could recognize a square,
in this world of becoming, but I don't <B>know</B> yet the ultimate truth
about man.</P>
<P>And if you think <B>this</B> is the <B>idea</B> of man, then you are
open to Aristotle (and Plato's, see the <I>Parmenides</I>) argument of
the third man. It may be a &quot;form&quot; of man, but certainly not the
ultimate <B>idea</B> of man, for Plato at least, in my humble opinion...
This, and all like constructs of our mind, exist only as &quot;images&quot;
of what we see and feel with our senses. We &quot;put&quot; them without
futher demonstration and deem them &quot;evident&quot;.</P>
<P>4) So, what is left? What is left is whatever might ultimately answer
the question &quot;what is it to be a man?&quot; And this, for Plato, I
think, is <B>the idea of justice</B> as described at length in the <I>Republic</I>,
and as &quot;evoqued&quot; by a summary of the <B>principles</B> of the
<I>Republic</I> at the start ot the <I>Tim&aelig;us</I>, <B>before the
myth starts</B>, to better show it is outide space and time, before other
&quot;forms&quot; of man will be described within the myth, within time
and space: the &quot;form&quot; of matter he is made of, the form of his
body, the form of his soul.</P>
<P>Such an idea doesn't stem from images of &quot;live&quot; entities in
the visible world. It is a pure idea. A just man, be it Socrates, is no
more &quot;justice&quot; than a beautiful girl is <I>to kalon</I> (see
<I>Hippias Major</I>). And, if it is an &quot;image&quot; of justice, it
is in a very remote sense. It is rather the &quot;participation&quot; of
a visible being to the &quot;idea&quot; that will in the end give him purpose,
unity and &quot;being&quot;, but not being in the world of becoming, in
time and space, rather &quot;being&quot; in eternity...</P>
<P>And the only way we may reach this &quot;idea&quot; is by going from
idea to idea from the &quot;hypothesis&quot; of man up to virtue, beauty,
courage, and the like, from the &quot;hypothesis&quot; of man to the new
hypothesis of &quot;soul&quot; to the structure of the soul and to the
larger hypothesis of <I>logos</I>, and so on, all that under the &quot;light&quot;
of the idea of the &quot;good&quot; as the leading principle, until I figure
out what the true &quot;good&quot; of man is, and I find it in the idea
of &quot;justice&quot;, but a justice that is no longer limited to &quot;social&quot;
justice, but starts as &quot;internal&quot; justice between the various
parts of my being, of my soul, as a foundation for justice in my relationship
with fellow men.</P>
<P><B>This</B> is what Plato cares for! And if you stumble on some of the
&quot;blocks&quot; he uses to pave the way in trying to help, forget about
those blocks and keep going. Those who, like Aristotle, drawn in the river
of mathematics and never reach the &quot;promised land&quot; are the same
who miss the end of Atlantis' story by Critias and never get to work on
the <I>Laws</I>... </P>
<P>
<HR WIDTH="100%"></P>
<P><I>From: Michael Chase &lt;GOYA@UVVM.UVIC.CA&gt;<BR>
To: plato &lt;plato@freelance.com&gt;<BR>
Date : August 14, 1996, 11:24:48<BR>
Subject: mathematical entities </I>[original in French, my translation]</P>
<TABLE CELLSPACING=5 WIDTH="100%" VALIGN="TOP" >
<TR>
<TD WIDTH="50%"><I>Cher Yves,</I></TD>
<TD WIDTH="50%">Dear Yves,</TD>
</TR>
<TR>
<TD VALIGN=TOP WIDTH="50%"><I>Vous avez r&eacute;cemment pos&eacute; la
question de savoir ce qu'il en &eacute;tait des objets math&eacute;matiques
de Platon. Vous y avez d&eacute;j&agrave; re&ccedil;u de tr&egrave;s utiles
r&eacute;ponses, qui contiennent, sans doute, tout ce qu'il serait utile
d'enseigner &agrave; une classe d'&eacute;tudiants d&eacute;butants.</I></TD>
<TD VALIGN=TOP WIDTH="50%">You recently asked what was the status of Plato's
mathematical objects. You already received several quite useful answers,
containing, no doubt, all that should be taught to a class of beginners.</TD>
</TR>
<TR>
<TD VALIGN=TOP WIDTH="50%"><I>Mais il n'en reste pas moins, &agrave; mon
avis, que la d&eacute;marche de M. Suzanne est totalement ill&eacute;gitime.
Nous ne pouvons pas ne pas prendre en consid&eacute;ration les longs d&eacute;veloppements
qu'Aristote consacre &agrave; la th&eacute;orie platonicienne des nombres
id&eacute;aux. En effet, le Stagirite nous dit, en d&eacute;tail et &agrave;
maintes reprises, que Platon enseignait l'existence d'un domaine de l'existence
interm&eacute;diaire entre les Id&eacute;es et le monde sensible; domaine
constitue pr&eacute;cis&eacute;ment par les Nombres Id&eacute;aux. Aristote
nous dit </I>expressis verbis<I> que Platon avait transmis ces doctrines
dans son enseignement oral. Or m&ecirc;me si l'on pense, avec M. Suzanne,
qu'Aristote etait - quoi? B&ecirc;te? Fou? D&eacute;lirant? - il n'est
pas possible de n'accorder aucun cr&eacute;dit &agrave; la tradition mill&eacute;naire
du N&eacute;oplatonisme, dont les repr&eacute;sentants - depuis Jamblique,
Syrianus et Proclus jusqu'&agrave; Michel Psellus - ont d&eacute;velopp&eacute;
ces aspects de la doctrine platonicienne, notamment en ce qui concerne
le rapport &eacute;troit qui lie ces choses math&eacute;matiques au niveau
psychique de la r&eacute;alit&eacute;.</I></TD>
<TD VALIGN=TOP WIDTH="50%">Yet, there remains the fact that, in my opinion,
M.&nbsp;Suzanne's approach is totally illegitimate. We cannot not take
into account the lengthy developments that Aristotle devotes to the Platonic
theory of ideal numbers. Indeed, the Stagirian tells us, in details and
numerous times, that Plato was teaching the existence of a sphere of beings
intermediate between the forms and the visible world, a sphere of beings
precisely made up of the Ideal Numbers. Aristotle tells us <I>expressis
verbis</I> that Plato transmitted these doctrines in his oral teaching.
Yet, even if one thinks with M. Suzanne that Aristotle was - what? Dumb?
Fool? Delirious? - it is impossible not to give creance to the millenary
tradition of Neoplatonism, whose followers - starting with Jamblicus, Syrianus
and Proclus down to Michel Psellus - developed those aspects of platonician
doctrine, especially as regards the close relationship between those mathematical
beings and the psychical dimension of reality.</TD>
</TR>
<TR>
<TD VALIGN=TOP WIDTH="50%"><I>Recevez, cher Yves, mes meilleurs salutations
depuis la c&ocirc;te Pacifique, de la part de</I></TD>
<TD VALIGN=TOP WIDTH="50%">Please accept, dear Yves, my best greetings
from the Pacific coast, from</TD>
</TR>
<TR>
<TD WIDTH="50%"><I>Michael Chase<BR>
University of Victoria. </I></TD>
<TD WIDTH="50%">Michael Chase<BR>
University of Victoria</TD>
</TR>
</TABLE>
<P>
<HR WIDTH="100%"></P>
<P>To: plato &lt;plato@freelance.com&gt;<BR>
Date : August 15, 1996, 10:51:12<BR>
Subject: Re: mathematical entities</P>
<P>Dear Yves and Michael,</P>
<P>my purpose, in the answer to Yves, was not to dismiss the constant and
sustained interest Plato always had in mathematics, but only to put it
in perspective with respect to what was foremost to him, the &quot;know
thyself&quot;.</P>
<P>Obviously Plato spent a large share of his time dealing with mathematics
and &quot;sciences&quot; in general, and everybody knows the Academy hosted
renowed mathematicians during his lifetime. In the <I>Tim&aelig;us</I>,
Plato is the first one (at least the first whose works are extant) to offer
a mathematical model of matter (based on triangles). And if the model is
largely outdated by now, the process that leads to it, the way of approaching
things, is more than ever relevant today (and I was stressing in my answer
to Yves that Plato defines the two segments of the intelligible in terms
of <B>processes</B>, not <B>entities</B>). The <B>Tim&aelig;us</B> may
be viewed, from this standpoint, as an example of the <B>descending</B>
approach (the one in the first segment of intelligible) starting from the
smallest possible number of simple hypotheses to build from them a <B>scientific
model</B> of the universe. Yet, it doesn't move upward toward the anhypotetical
principle, because triangles are neither good nor bad, neither just nor
injust. They are, that's all. That's one more way to say that matter as
such is neither good nor bad, but simply subject to its own laws; it is
necessity, <I>anagk&egrave;</I>, with which you have to make do.</P>
<P>For Plato, mathematics are an example of abstraction proving, as others
with whom I fully agree said in their answers to Yves, that the whole of
being is not limited to material, sensible beings, to what is within time
and space. And the <I>the&ocirc;ria</I> of the world is to us an example
of order, of <I>kosmos</I>, we should use as a <B>model</B> to bring order
to our cities and our lives through laws stemming from our <I>logos</I>.
For that reason, it all deserves our consideration and the time Plato and
his pupils spend on it. But, and that was my point, this is still no more
that <B>means</B> toward a higher end, the building of man in time and
space. Mathematics, like all other sciences and technics, are <B>neutral</B>.
They don't tell us how we should use them for good or bad. This is the
whole message of the <I>Hippias minor</I>, and already of the <I>Charmides</I>.
That is why they only belong to the first segment of the intelligible.</P>
<P>That Plato spent a lot of time trying to categorize the various orders
of &quot;reality&quot;; that, while doing so, he gave a key role to mathematical
constructs he used, as I already said, as <B>examples</B>; this is more
than likely. That, in this work, discussion with students and colleagues,
including Aristotle, lead him to overstate his case, might not be surprising.
But I doubt very much that he held mathematical entities as the ultimate
reality, as the highest order of &quot;ideas&quot;. This would seem to
me in complete contradiction with everything he says elsewhere and with
Socrates influence on him and what he tells us in his &quot;intellectual
autobiography&quot; in the <I>Ph&aelig;do</I>. </P>
<P>About Aristotle now. I don't consider Aristotle as a dumb, or a fool,
or a mad person, but as one of Plato's brightest students, and, I might
add, as a &quot;good student&quot; with all the drawback this implies.
I believe that, despite all his gifts, Aristotle was unable to follow Plato
all the way &quot;upward&quot; where Plato reached. Aristotle was full
of &quot;common sense&quot; and most likely received a solid &quot;scientific&quot;
education owing to his familial origins. But he was also too much of a
&quot;materialist&quot;, too keen of &quot;hard facts&quot; to follow Plato
to the level of abstraction he wanted to lead him to. Besides, he was too
fond of &quot;showing up&quot;, too anxious to give the right answers,
to show that he understood. Plato spent his life trying to help students
find <B>within themselves</B> answers to the ultimate questions. Aristotle
on the other hand spent his life trying to give others the right answers.
Aristotle, as Taylor said somewhere (using the French expression) was a
&quot;platonist <I>malgr&eacute; lui</I>&quot;. He tried to folow Plato's
approach of &quot;modeling&quot; the universe, but, as often arrives still
nowadays to scientists, it took the model for the real thing, he was unable
to make the difference between images and what they were images of, a difference
that Plato fully understood. Aristotle, true to his physician's ascent,
didn't understand that the &quot;idea of man&quot; was not a DNA molecule,
that he would call &quot;entelechy&quot;, or an &quot;image&quot; describing
the &quot;form&quot;, the &quot;structure&quot; of man as it might be found
under the scalpel of a surgeon, but the &quot;ideal&quot; man must &quot;participate&quot;
into in order to become what he is meant to be, an ideal of justice capable
of &quot;building&quot; man because it alone can bring to the lump of matter
he is made of a unity that doesn't disappear in death, as proves Socrates
still well and &quot;alive&quot; in the dialogues... </P>
<P>
<HR></P>
<P>To: plato &lt;plato@freelance.com&gt;<BR>
Date : August 15, 1996, 19:27:17<BR>
Subject: Re: mathematical entities</P>
<P>Nicholas Denyer writes, in answer to my statement that mathematics,
for Plato, were &quot;neutral&quot;, neither good nor bad:</P>
<P><I>&gt; Aristoxenus </I>Harm. El.<I> 2.30 &quot;</I>They came<I> [to
Plato's lecture on the Good] </I>in the conviction that they would get
some one or other of the things that the world calls good: riches, or health,
or strength. But when they found that Plato's reasonings were of mathematics
their disenchantment was complete<I>&quot; (trans. Ross).</I></P>
<P>This may simply mean that Plato, in order to lead his audience toward
the <B>idea</B> of the good had to use the detour via mathematics as a
path toward abstraction, which is what we have been saying all along. It
doesn't necessarily mean that mathematics <B>were</B> the good.</P>
<P><I>&gt; and also of the long passage in </I><A HREF="http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=plat.+gorg.+507a">Gorgias<I>
507a-508c</I></A><I>, especially 508a: &quot;</I>You do not realise that
geometrical equality has great force amongst both men and gods. Instead,
you think you should go in for greedy acquisition, for you neglect geometry.<I>&quot;</I></P>
<P>This passage is all about justice as the goal of man, and fits very
well with what I have been saying. Man must put <B>measure</B> in his life,
and geometry gives <B>examples</B> of measure and mean. But it is because
I know in the first place what justice is and how important to man it is
that I may take the example of the geometrical equality to illustrate it,
not the other way around. In other words, it is not the geometrical equality
which tells us it is better, it is us who use it as a means of measuring
a good we have found elsewhere. <B>In itself</B>, the geometrical equality
is neither better nor worse than the arithmetical. It only help express
and illustrate a good that I must have found elsewhere. So, granted, it
may &quot;participate&quot; to the good this way *in our minds*, but it
doesn't lead to the good if we don't know it yet.</P>
<P>Besides, it is very possible that Socrates is here making fun of Callicles
who despises philosophy in playing the &quot;scientist&quot; in front of
him, even if he believes what he says in a certain way. There is a share
of truth even in the theory of measurement of pleasures and pains Socrates
develops at the end of the <I>Protagoras</I>, even if it shouldn't be taken
litterally as Protagoras himself might interpret it. But numbers alone
are not by themselves the good... </P>
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<CENTER><P><FONT SIZE=-1>First published December 15, 1996&nbsp;;
Last updated November 21, 1998<BR>
&copy; 1996 <A HREF="mailto:bernard.suzanne@polytechnique.org">Bernard SUZANNE </A>
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